31 Jan 2008

May we live in interesting times.....

Indeed we do so. I was away on personal business for a few days and when I came back - a few, important things had changed. Much to my surprise ; the M34N Pirates have set their corp standings to RED to Black Flag. Most of the other M34N pilots weren't even told that this had happened, certainly there was no votes or anything and there many a frantic call from them to us on private channels asking for clarification. Most were as surprised as we were. In response, least we get ambushed and with reluctance, Viper set M34N to RED as well.

So now what? I spent the first morning catching up with Viper and others. I needed to gather the facts and sift through them and not get caught up in the spin. I feel it's partly my job to seek clarity and to audit what we do. It appears that this standings change stemmed from our decision NOT to set up any more corps to BLUE, regardless of how close we have worked with them. This has been a founding principle for us, we are a zero-political corp (well almost zero) that want to keep as little in the way of blue corps as possible. It keeps things simple to us. Any blue standings will be done on an individual by individual basis. This was the status quo and while not ideal, it was a practical solution to a complex environment but our conduct since the corp's foundation speaks for itself. We have not broken our word on any occasion and we have not shot at anyone who we've had friendly dealings with....unless they deserved it.

Tempered Steel Legion (TSL) are an industrial corporation that I have had friendly dealings with before I joined Black Flag. A corporation that managed to find a niche in supplying ships to low-sec corporations such as ourselves. Some of their pilots are ex-M34N and we've flown with a few of them. Competent and quite friendly, and not to forget, suppliers of fine hardware. Some are regarded as pirates with negative security ratings, lighting up people's overview in blinking red when they arrive.

TSL supplied ships to us (as well as to M34N and others) and we were happy to purchase them at very competitive prices. A good working relationship for all concerned. TSL are blue to M34N and WayCharles, a pilot that I have known ever since I came to Gusandall and before I joined Black Flag is a senior director there. He is also ex-M34N but apparently left under clouded circumstances. He had asked for his corp to be set to blue to Black Flag and we have informed him of our policy standings and declined his offer and said that we would maintain personal good standings with just a handful of TSL pilots. Pilots that we have got to know over time and who we have flown with in gangs. He appeared to be happy with this, at least initially but continued to press the issue.

We were, however, forced to make a choice a day ago: M34N corp (on behalf of TSL) demanded that Black Flag change our standings for TSL to blue and if not, then they would consider us hostiles with immediate effect. There then followed some heated words between the two parties, which polarised the two sides even further. Am sure the chat logs will be very revealing, if I manage to get hold of them.

However, we were shocked by this sudden turn.

No corporation can exist as a self-serving entity if it does not exercise its own free will. No corporation can exist if we draw a line and then allow someone to step over it. Even if we accepted all demands made by M34N and set TSL to blue...I doubt that relationships would remain between that of equals. We would have lost our sovereignty as a corp in the process of regaining half-friends who apparently do not respect us or our wishes. (from Viper Sam's internal memo to us, he said it so well, it's included.....)

The choice was simple and was made within seconds of the demand. It was a no.

M34N then set us immediately to red after this conversation where Viper wouldn't comply with their demands on OUR corp. We would never demand M34N to do something like that. It's madness. As soon as this happened, Hellequin corp ([JOKER]) another M34N ally, performed the same standings change. But chatting to a Hellequin pilots this morning, they too were surprised by this unilateral decision. There was no corp mail, no announcement, no vote, just the realisation that we would now be marked as red on their overviews.

Black Flag pilots understand now where we stand and it is far better to fight and die for your own principles than it is to live by someone else's. We've had our internal discussions, calmly and without much shouting. We're not happy that this is over something as small as a standings issue. Our conduct over the last three months speaks for itself. We're sad to lose fellow pirates but we respect their choice. We're getting ready to fight now. Just when there are a load of anti-pirates gunning for all of us, we end up in this. We kindly request anti-pirates (yes, am looking at Rhericlya and DeltaUK1 to name two) to sit back and watch from afar. Black Flag will prevail. I've spoken to nearly all the corp members and all is well.

Pirates. Love'em.

To all the independent pilots in the INDEPENDENCE channel, please be contact me or Viper Sam for more information or clarification. The channel will always remain open to EVERYONE. However, be a bit more careful for the next couple of weeks if you are around Gusandall and Eifer; you're neutral to almost everyone (including to each other) so be on your toes. Mixed gangs will still run but there will be less. However, this shouldn't stop some of you bad boys doing solo work though or ganging up with BF or M34N as required.


Kane Rizzel said...

I'm reminded of an old saying and one that is in my bio: I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

Good luck and good hunting.

The area jus got a lot more interesting

Anonymous said...

I for 1 would like to know at what point m34n corp ask'd.... let alone demanded that blackflag set any standings towards tsl, if this is the reason your ceo has given you for the standing re-set then i should inform you that you have been serverly mis lead... as such flash, i have no problem forwarding you the chat log that i hold, where i clearly state that blackflags standings are nothing to do with m34n corp

Anonymous said...

Don't know much about politics mate but keep this blog going, it's my morning read!

If you get shut down, what am I going to do? All power to you and your buddies though! I have to come over to your neck of the woods and pew-pew

Frustrated Pirate / Anti-Pirate

a regular gang mate said...

Hi Flash. Love your blog and my first comment. Am a grunt in M34N and I have nada idea about standings change and I am pissed off with it. No corp mail or comms or anything. I mean, WTF? Who's in charge anyway?

Just a couple of big egos taking matters into their own hands.

I won't fire on your or take part in ganks against you. Sick of this shit.

Redbad said...

Hello Flash,

I don't comment anonymous. I am quite surprised by the contents of your blog.

I told Viper more then once that (blue) standings are not an issue, we know who to shoot and who not. It is utterly ridiculous to read that TSL put pressure on BF to get blue standings. We are not even a presence to the area?! And certainly in no position to put pressure on anyone really.

Using such standings issues as "excuses" for the real issue is leaving me a bit of an aftertaste here.

The main thing is that personal views/principles got in the way.

There was apparently some convo in which Viper felt pressure from various sides to set us to blue or at least to not be so fuzzed about it.

This touched a principle in Viper and BF. And, most understandingly, he refused to bow to anyone. The emotions on mean-side and BF-side apparently were communicated in a common piratey fashion, ..., not too diplomatic.

Don't look for blaming little TSL for this; it is big ego's and principles that decided the course taken.

Mind you , I do not judge the principles or course taken, on the contrary, I respect that very much. But BF starting to point in random directions just to look for justifications for your own principles are rather ... erhm ... surprisingly awkward?

BF leadership just made choices, they choose not to compromise. We can only respect and admire that. But leave it at that, your own choice, and not try to find some outside circumstances that made you take that choice.

BF leadership doesn't need to frantically find outside circumstances to justify their decisions. Certainly not at the expense of the integrity of TSL-members.

There is certainly a lot of politics for a zero-politics corp.


Vipe said...

Death, I haven't denied that you initially stated that it wasn't your concern. From my post to my corpies:

"I started a conversation with Death about the 2 cents he added to the conversation and told him I didn't really appreciate his comments there. I felt like he riled Waycharles up a bit by jumping behind him there. Death said sorry and added it wasn't really his concern."

I made it clear to my corpies that you had been neutral in the conversation. But remember that this was after you offered your opinion to the matter in a public venue. You should have approached me in private about it.

Also, keep in mind the conversation that took place after with Dogz--admittedly heated--between both parties where he stirred teh cauldron further in the intel channel and, in private convos, made the first digs at BLACK-FLAG and at me as an individual. I was angry and returned the gesture. It was then that Dogz said all he'll have to do is show you the insults I made toward him to have us set to red.

I have to wonder if you viewed the entire conversation (the bit that was scrolled up and lost) before you entered the conversation and said:

(Paraphrasing)"This is Death. I've viewed the conversation and we will be setting you to red. If you change your mind about TSL send me a convo."

I have to wonder who exactly is misinformed. When my corp mates logged in they new exactly what time it was. Not even your corp leader knew what was going on. No corp mails from you. No nothing. I don't understand how the above quote can be construed for anything else. Even if that wasn't said (and it was), the point of contention giving rise to the dispute in the first place was definitely about setting TSL to blue.

Death, I'm anxious to see how you approach this. I will be releasing all relevant chat logs to my corpies later today as they are on my machine at work.

I certainly hope that you've looked at all relevant logs yourself prior to putting your foot in your mouth.

I actually feel bad about what's going on with Dogz and your current situation. I don't wish to have any further bitter exchanges with you guys. We will not be leaving Gusandall so we'll be fighting you guys there. I don't think that our differences are reconcilable at this point. But we will remain respectful to your lot--friends or foes. I wish the best for you and yours... sincerely.

Vipe said...

Redbad, I'm sorry that you were left out of the loop on all of this. I don't think you have a completely clear idea of what is going on.

You are right that in the end this has very little to do with TSL and much to do with differences between BF and M34N. Although, WayCharles did add friction there...

That said, I will be posting the chat logs on our Allies section of the forum for your viewing. I respect you as a friend and hope to maintain our personal relationship.

I tried my hardest not to let my ego get involved and just tried to defend our position. It really wasn't a matter of my own ego, but of not budging on our corporate policy. It's my belief that a corp's core ideals should never compromised under external stimuli. Else, a year from now we will be looking down the nose of a creation that is not ours.

mandaro said...

I'd just like to say: omgwtf?

I just came back from being away for two days to the message: "You have not been invited to BLACK-FLAG Local Intel" and my first thought was "WTF"

I do however want to say that blues need to be mutual. If you're blue to mean, you're blue to all of its blues. PERIOD.

Flashfresh said...

'Tis a busy day!

@Kane - Indeed most interesting.

@Anonymous1 - flashfresh@googlemail.com

@Anonymous2 - Thanks

@ 'A regular gang mate' - post with your main!

@Redbad - cheers for the comments, yeah, silly TSL being used as an excuse isn't it? Have been working hard on the diplomatic front (me a diplo???) to see how we can get a closure on this.

@Viper - thanks for the clarification. I note that my entry has compressed a longer conversation into a short amount of text.

In light of this. I want to make clear that M34N did NOT use the exact words "Set TSL to blue or you are red to us". However, forcing us to change our existing corp policy involving BLUES and access to intel channels etc and closing the conversation with:(again, paraphrasing) "You are now red. If you change your minds about TSL send me a convo."

I will amend as required.

It's my blog and not the minutes of the conversation after all!

Anonymous said...

People who resist change and evolution, live under parameters defined outside of the reality we exist in.

Death said...


Channel ID: 2128244971
Channel Name: Private Chat (Viper Sam)
Listener: pvp god
Session started: 2008.01.30 22:55:04

[ 2008.01.30 22:55:09 ] pvp god > \o
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:19 ] Viper Sam > o/
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:22 ] Viper Sam > you doing that to fuck with me?
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:39 ] pvp god > yep
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:46 ] Viper Sam > seriously dude
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:52 ] Viper Sam > there was just a bunch o f drama over tha shit
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:52 ] pvp god > not to fuk with ya
[ 2008.01.30 22:55:58 ] Viper Sam > and you guys are making me look like an asshole
[ 2008.01.30 22:56:01 ] pvp god > just cos its all wrong
[ 2008.01.30 22:56:12 ] Viper Sam > what is?
[ 2008.01.30 22:56:49 ] pvp god > whats happening its wrong morraly
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:15 ] Viper Sam > ok soooo
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:21 ] Viper Sam > what you're saying is
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:27 ] Viper Sam > they are making money off of us
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:29 ] Viper Sam > and
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:33 ] Viper Sam > moving in on our market
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:39 ] Viper Sam > and we are supposed to thank them for it?>
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:53 ] Viper Sam > and we are supposed to negate our corporate poicy for it?
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:57 ] pvp god > im saying that ppl that have been friends and provide us a service should not be having this prob
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:05 ] Viper Sam > don't even know who they are
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:08 ] Viper Sam > i know redbad
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:11 ] Viper Sam > and WC
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:11 ] pvp god > you dont sell fuk all
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:27 ] pvp god > gus market has sucked for a long time
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:47 ] Viper Sam > so fuckin set em to blue dude
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:53 ] Viper Sam > don't try to make us
[ 2008.01.30 22:58:57 ] pvp god > they should be
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:02 ] Viper Sam > we are a zero poitics corp
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:04 ] pvp god > to both m34n and fl4g
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:24 ] pvp god > get on vent ?
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:32 ] Viper Sam > i'm at work
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:35 ] Viper Sam > no mic
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:36 ] Viper Sam > no speakers
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:44 ] Viper Sam > dogz
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:48 ] Viper Sam > seriously
[ 2008.01.30 22:59:53 ] Viper Sam > have you fuckin thought about this?
[ 2008.01.30 23:00:15 ] Viper Sam > why the drama dude?
[ 2008.01.30 23:00:56 ] Viper Sam > do you know it's the miners making money?
[ 2008.01.30 23:00:59 ] Viper Sam > the minders
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:03 ] Viper Sam > miners
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:09 ] Viper Sam > of whom you know NONE
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:19 ] Viper Sam > do you really think they're bending over backwards for YOU?
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:22 ] pvp god > its wrong imo
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:23 ] Viper Sam > no
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:32 ] pvp god > can u hear me ?
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:34 ] Viper Sam > they aren't doing you favors dude
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:47 ] Viper Sam > you're just syaing it's wrong
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:52 ] pvp god > yup
[ 2008.01.30 23:01:55 ] Viper Sam > i'm giving you reasons why it's not
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:05 ] Viper Sam > they are getting benefit from being here
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:08 ] Viper Sam > not doing us favors
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:13 ] Viper Sam > don't you get that?
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:23 ] Viper Sam > i run a corp full of fucking pirates
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:32 ] Viper Sam > i can't turn around and keep telling them not to shoot
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:34 ] pvp god > i agree that there is too many blues but this is wrong when they have been helping in both manufacturing and fighting
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:07 ] Viper Sam > they have made some shit and sold it to us
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:12 ] Viper Sam > FOR PROFIT
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:22 ] Viper Sam > i don't knwo any of them
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:25 ] Viper Sam > except two
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:32 ] Viper Sam > dude
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:34 ] pvp god > but not as much as the next guy will charge in rens
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:39 ] Viper Sam > i don't even know what to say to you
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:43 ] Viper Sam > your'e too soft
[ 2008.01.30 23:03:57 ] Viper Sam > everytime you turn around you're going to have someone asking you to do something for them
[ 2008.01.30 23:04:04 ] Viper Sam > before you know it you'll be blue to half of eve
[ 2008.01.30 23:04:15 ] Viper Sam > YOU NEED TO PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN
[ 2008.01.30 23:04:16 ] pvp god > so u think the 2 u know do all the work or u think the rest of the corp all chip in ?
[ 2008.01.30 23:04:48 ] Viper Sam > i KNOW the rest of the corp all chips in... but i can tell you who it's not for... US
[ 2008.01.30 23:04:55 ] Viper Sam > they are moving in on an untapped market
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:03 ] Viper Sam > TON of fucking money to be made here
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:10 ] Viper Sam > no other corps have access to it because we'll shoot them
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:18 ] Viper Sam > THEY ARE DOING IT FOR THEMSELVES
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:25 ] Viper Sam > jesus don't be such a sucker
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:29 ] Viper Sam > i liek red
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:31 ] Viper Sam > i like WC
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:33 ] pvp god > whatever i support them verbally but if it comes to fighting i dont want nothing to do with it either side
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:33 ] Viper Sam > well not much n ow
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:48 ] Viper Sam > FUCK THIS SHIT
[ 2008.01.30 23:05:54 ] Viper Sam > NO MORE GOD DAMN POLITICS
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:10 ] Viper Sam > WE ARE BLUE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE FRIENDS
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:27 ] Viper Sam > because it would feel weird to fire on you guys
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:32 ] pvp god > : -))
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:33 ] Viper Sam > not because we need you
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:43 ] Viper Sam > our alliances aren't forged out of convenience
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:50 ] Viper Sam > jsut out of friendship
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:51 ] pvp god > fall out with others not them
[ 2008.01.30 23:06:54 ] Viper Sam > fuck this politics shit
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:09 ] Viper Sam > not going to have it
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:14 ] Viper Sam > it was said from the outset
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:18 ] Viper Sam > zero politics
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:23 ] Viper Sam > and now i'm getting pissed off
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:41 ] Viper Sam > from the drama with you feeling like we weren't cooperating with you guys
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:49 ] Viper Sam > no idea what you amd about because i wasn't around
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:51 ] pvp god > this will send things tits up if it was rl it would be a career busting move
[ 2008.01.30 23:07:53 ] Viper Sam > mad*
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:08 ] Viper Sam > this is a fucking pirate corp dude
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:11 ] Viper Sam > it's not a business
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:13 ] pvp god > yup
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:15 ] Viper Sam > we aren't in it for the money
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:38 ] Viper Sam > we have alts who can manufacture and mine
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:45 ] Viper Sam > we could build the fuckers ourselves
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:48 ] Viper Sam > we have a freighter
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:54 ] Viper Sam > it's a non-issue
[ 2008.01.30 23:08:57 ] pvp god > so you want to pay more for your ships for the fuk of it ?
[ 2008.01.30 23:09:21 ] pvp god > if thats the case ill bring over canes mark up 10 mill over rens : -))
[ 2008.01.30 23:09:37 ] Viper Sam > we can fucking buld them ourselves dude
[ 2008.01.30 23:09:43 ] Viper Sam > we don't need to pay extra
[ 2008.01.30 23:09:49 ] Viper Sam > sure it's nice getting cheaper canes
[ 2008.01.30 23:10:08 ] pvp god > can you keep up with demand you guys go through a lot
[ 2008.01.30 23:10:19 ] Viper Sam > but fuck a nother corp trying to strong arm our policy because they're offering us decent prices
[ 2008.01.30 23:11:13 ] Viper Sam > is that a go?
[ 2008.01.30 23:14:48 ] pvp god > im not but you want red to all i can sort
[ 2008.01.30 23:15:01 ] Viper Sam > didn't say red
[ 2008.01.30 23:15:06 ] Viper Sam > they'd be neutral
[ 2008.01.30 23:15:11 ] Viper Sam > and it's not as if we'd be gunning for them
[ 2008.01.30 23:15:49 ] pvp god > but its not as if there gonna feel safe bringing your unarmed ships in for u to shoot ?
[ 2008.01.30 23:16:27 ] Viper Sam > wow
[ 2008.01.30 23:17:42 ] pvp god > whatever do what you want they have the backing of m34n wholeheartedly i think
[ 2008.01.30 23:18:04 ] Viper Sam > well that's cool
[ 2008.01.30 23:18:25 ] Viper Sam > and that works for you guys
[ 2008.01.30 23:18:32 ] Viper Sam > because everyone in your corp just does whatever they feel
[ 2008.01.30 23:18:38 ] Viper Sam > and no one really does anything for the corp
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:18 ] Viper Sam > it's more a group of a few playes
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:20 ] Viper Sam > that play together
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:25 ] Viper Sam > than an organization
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:32 ] Viper Sam > you got all pissed about coordination
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:36 ] Viper Sam > about not getting the mail
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:38 ] pvp god > whatever your wrong in this
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:41 ] Viper Sam > when you admitted don't read corp mails
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:50 ] pvp god > i dont
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:57 ] pvp god > but i dont like reading
[ 2008.01.30 23:19:57 ] Viper Sam > well you get what you put in bro
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:14 ] Viper Sam > the whole coordination thing made me wonder
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:17 ] Viper Sam > wtf is going on?
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:25 ] Viper Sam > because i never heard a single thread of animosity from you
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:39 ] Viper Sam > don't know if you were tyring to use telepathy or what
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:49 ] Viper Sam > but basically if something is going on it should be communicated
[ 2008.01.30 23:20:51 ] pvp god > i dont really do polotics i just say things as i see them you know all i do is shoot but i can see this what your doing is wrong
[ 2008.01.30 23:21:15 ] Viper Sam > wow
[ 2008.01.30 23:21:18 ] Viper Sam > so who cried you a river?
[ 2008.01.30 23:22:01 ] Viper Sam > jesus christ i feel like i'm taking crazy pills
[ 2008.01.30 23:22:26 ] Viper Sam > dunno man
[ 2008.01.30 23:22:49 ] Viper Sam > BF is a pirate corp
[ 2008.01.30 23:23:04 ] Viper Sam > if it weren't for you guys being friends you'd be red too
[ 2008.01.30 23:23:32 ] Viper Sam > but now i'm starting to see this politics shit is happening
[ 2008.01.30 23:23:36 ] Viper Sam > and i'm not going to do it
[ 2008.01.30 23:23:46 ] Viper Sam > just not
[ 2008.01.30 23:24:28 ] Viper Sam > this shit ruins shit
[ 2008.01.30 23:24:39 ] Viper Sam > and that is exactly why we won't do it
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:13 ] Viper Sam > i know you think that BF is just a corp full of young players but a few guys here have a lot of experience leading player organizations
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:25 ] Viper Sam > politics ruins shit
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:38 ] Viper Sam > pisses me off that these guys made this move
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:50 ] Viper Sam > and fuckin suckerd you into thinking it was for you
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:55 ] Viper Sam > LOL
[ 2008.01.30 23:25:55 ] Viper Sam > yea dogz
[ 2008.01.30 23:26:02 ] Viper Sam > they're just flaling alll over themselves for YOU
[ 2008.01.30 23:26:09 ] Viper Sam > because they love you so much
[ 2008.01.30 23:26:17 ] Viper Sam > they want to help you
[ 2008.01.30 23:26:28 ] Viper Sam > has nothing to do with them moving in on an untapped market
[ 2008.01.30 23:27:34 ] pvp god > your attitude towards the situation sucks dannyrsturbo had a bad attitude also
[ 2008.01.30 23:30:59 ] Viper Sam > a. your attitude sucks--not mine. you're trying to intervene with our internal politics and make me look like an asshole.b. i don't appreciate it man. i try hard to organize shit between bot of our corps. i've been completely diplomatic.
[ 2008.01.30 23:31:12 ] Viper Sam > c. we aren't p.s.t.
[ 2008.01.30 23:31:55 ] Viper Sam > that sounds a lot like a threat dogz
[ 2008.01.30 23:32:20 ] pvp god > danny was a rl m8 too did you know dont start slagging me or my corp or i will wtf own you blue or not
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:05 ] pvp god > death just turned up i will have you red in 1 min for slagging m34n
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:13 ] pvp god > ?
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:24 ] Viper Sam > you started making digs at my corp... and insulting me... trying to make me look like an asshole
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:46 ] pvp god > no i just said it is wrong and it it very
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:52 ] Viper Sam > um
[ 2008.01.30 23:33:57 ] Viper Sam > comment about us going through a lot of canes
[ 2008.01.30 23:34:01 ] Viper Sam > DIG number 2
[ 2008.01.30 23:34:04 ] pvp god > i said i apprechiate what they do and i do
[ 2008.01.30 23:34:08 ] Viper Sam > showing me up in m34n fl4g
[ 2008.01.30 23:34:11 ] Viper Sam > number 1
[ 2008.01.30 23:34:17 ] Viper Sam > you stirred the shit first buddy
[ 2008.01.30 23:35:47 ] pvp god > i spoke the truth red was in mean never really left still sells all my loot and stuff i aprechiate the work and commitment they put in for us and it deservs recognition not ousting
[ 2008.01.30 23:36:21 ] Viper Sam > that's redbad
[ 2008.01.30 23:36:25 ] Viper Sam > not TSL
[ 2008.01.30 23:36:38 ] Viper Sam > i wasn't ousting anyone
[ 2008.01.30 23:38:01 ] pvp god > sorry nothing i can do death here and we both read chat and did some polotics your now going red convo us if you change your mind about TSL

Death said...

on neither occasions did i (a director of m34n) or pvp god (a member) convo you viper, you convo'd me and i told you your corps standings are nothing to do with m34n, the standing's was set from your poor attitude, smack of our members and corp as a whole... thats b4 we start on ethic's.... waycharles and redbad are both "ex" m34n corpy's and tsl basicly replace M34NL doing their job untill M34NL returned to the aera, on top of this, we have lived in the "gus" area since long before you even thought of starting your own corp, when we return'd from our short holliday away from the area you guys was red to us and we fought daily, you convo'd and ask'd for standing's, to which myself and mandaro back'd up your claim to our ceo, thus you was set blue, since then we have had a number of disputes over standing's.... you dont want any blue, although we already have blues from long b4 your corp existed, the same lot of blues that help m34n clear the anti pie's from the area, so basicaly from my point of veiw you are not only asking us to sit back whilst our noob blues shoot our older blue's, but your constant whineing about standing's, even to the stage of convoing our members smacking them and our corp you left little option for me to set you, and your corp (alot of who are personal friends) to red, i now hear you have set tsl to blue on your personal standings, this does not and will not change our standings towards you.... the first couple of time was bad enough but this time your gob over step'd the mark imho, i will post on here my chat log as well as the posted chat from pvp's convo you will see i never smack'd 1 bit, and pvp god started off very calm and try'd to veiw his personal opinion (presuming this is what you wanted upon convoing him) pvp's opinion is not that of the corps and also i dont know why "he" said if you change your mind about tsl to convo, this argument go's alot deeper than that, laneth (our ceo) is aware of the standing change and once he log's on whilst im on i will be talking to him not only about this event, but of the others also, all of which derived your current standing to m34n corp, as far as no corp vote this is due to a few reasons.... 1 there was no vote to change you from red to blue, things happen at spure of the moment, if i was to put up a corp vote then this would take a couple of weeks to ensure that all members have had their vote, there just isn't time for that in some situation's..... in short your gob got you in this mess your gob and the backing of your corp/directors have got the corp in the mess, your obviously not happy the way things are and truth be known neither are m34n, we like you guys and have always enjoy'd flying with you guy's.... you keep saying that tsl are takeing over the market, this would have been seen as a acceptable explanation if you had a market there yourself provideing our current blues with under market good's, but you dont and the few items your corp have on the market are highly over priced to which you offer no discount so you reason seems to lack any substance, there realy are to many problems to write about but these are just some of the pointers, it realy has very little to do with tsl and your standings towards them although that dispute has made this argument come to light, once im home again the other chat log of you and me will be posted just for general veiwing, and i hope that your swearing and arrogance does not get flashfresh into any trouble on here, but chat logs are posted unalter'd in anyway, i await your responce although tbh this debate is realy getting tired now


Death said...


You say you run a zero politic corp, is this a joke?
M34n DO NOT shoot blues, we DO NOT dis-honour 1v1's (although this has happend once along time ago) we ALWAYS respect a ransom all of these things are political motivated and we would not blue a corp that would do any of the above even the fact that you say you wont blue any corps is a politicaly motaved statement, you seem to select what politics you want as and when you need them?!?!?!?! =s

Redbad said...

I read the chat-log. I am highly disappointed in you Viper Sam.

"[ 2008.01.30 22:57:27 ] Viper Sam > they are making money off of us
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:29 ] Viper Sam > and
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:33 ] Viper Sam > moving in on our market
[ 2008.01.30 22:57:39 ] Viper Sam > and we are supposed to thank them for it?>"

"[ 2008.01.30 23:01:55 ] Viper Sam > i'm giving you reasons why it's not
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:05 ] Viper Sam > they are getting benefit from being here
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:08 ] Viper Sam > not doing us favors
[ 2008.01.30 23:02:13 ] Viper Sam > don't you get that?"

If you had concerns of TSL (read me) putting too much cheap modules or ships on the market or selling to your corpmembers, you come to me. I am a mere convo or vent convo away.

If you think we'd be earning on the ships we built, you are plain wrong. We could sell them in Rens or Jita for better prices. Sometimes we even took a slight loss, just to get the job done.

You want to know the reason why we put a fucking effort to provide stuff:

To get things going for your fleet!!!
As you were doing a helluva job organizing it! It deserved all the support it could get! M34N saw your effort, WC and I saw BF's effort. It was great. Dogz and Death put hardtime in to provide tanking or carrier support for the fleets. Everyone was playing his part.

I even also buy stuff in Rens and put them up for the same price in Gus, just to make sure we have some stuff handy if we ran into trouble and needed quick replacements.

Hell, I was even talking with Grun what he was trading and made sure I took modules that he hadn't allready put on the market to get a wide as a spread as possible.

You have acted pretty shortsighted on behalf of your corp Viper Sam. Be aware, not all things are driven by profit or personal gain. This is a game not the USA. Sometimes you just put in effort to help eachother out or support things you like. Like flying together in awesoem fleets.

I think I speak for all of the regular fleet members that there was a lot of fun to be had in our joined fleets. Mean regulars, TSL regulars, Joker regulars and BF regulars.

really, If you didnt appreciate what I and WC were doing for the fleets, or Dogz and death were pulling off in support, you just should have said so, I wouldnt have taken the effort. TSL members behind the scenes wouldn't have taken an effort.

I just felt slapped in the face by reading that chatlog.


P.S. Flash, I am sorry that your fantastic blog is being abused by our bantering, you deserve better. I'll refrain from commenting here on this subject further.

Vipe said...

Yep, no blues. Your argument that that stance is, in itself, a political statement is a fallacy based on a lack of logical equipment.

Just to be completely clear. TSL is not blue. I don't know where you got this information.

They will be set to blue on an individual basis, should their members want to come and PVP in the area. If they have guys hauling items in they will give us a heads up--the same approach we would have taken before you and Dogz interfered with it.

Please make sure that you post the comments made in M34N FL4G that spurred the conversations. Otherwise the context can't be understood. Dogzbody wasn't showing any respect or caution with the comments he made in that channel. He was intentionally antagonizing the situation in front of the entire channel. It showed just how much you guys respected us. That and that alone set the tone for the conversation that followed.

I'll be as clear as I possibly can here and then I'll be done with the banter. TSL (the corporation) wanted to base in Gusandall under their own ambitions as a corp. We were essentially asked to partner with them and declined. It was nothing personal at all. We just don't believe in partnering with an entire corp that we do not know yet--a corp that is essentially the polar opposite of ours. How can either party seriously look out for each other's interests in the long term?

When I was in IAC I saw the same things happening. Several organizations with differing approaches to the game attempting to work together for a common goal. In the end that goal becomes skewed because you have several parties trying to alter it to fit their interests.

We have a lot of friends. There are people who approach me all of the time about bringing their corps out and helping out, to which I respectfully decline. These are my own friends, some of whom I've known for years.

We don't want that and we never have wanted that. Some corporations want exactly that. We have tried to steer clear of it from day one. It's a matter of personal preference and what we consider to be thinking forward. We are a young and developing corp. We'd prefer to have as few cooks in the kitchen as possible while we find our niche.

Your tone still shows no respect for us as a corp. In this comment area you have called us "noobs" at least once.

In the end we will have become more independent which is good for us. Good luck in all your endeavors.

Vipe said...

I just talked to Red in private. In essence this was said:

Everyone has ambitions--some more than others. Getting involved mutually with everyone else's doesn't serve a developing corp that wants to carve out its own niche.

Limiting our alignment in that respect allows us the freedom to make our own choices in the future.